Resiina-keskustelu

hello
I'm new here and I'm from Germany and I´m a big VR Railway-Fan  :)
Sorry, I can not finnish, so I want to write it here, exceptionally, my post in English.

Now it is known that the VR new electric locomotives from Siemens, type Vectron get, I want to ask if it is already known that the new diesel locomotives will get the VR. Is this already known?
I hope and I wish that VR ordered Vossloh locomotives of the type Euro 4000.
Thank you for your contributions.
Your VR fan from Germany
Peter

For the moment there are no new informations regarding the tender. We must still wait a while.

Und natürlich:

Herzlich willkommen auf unserem Forümchen!
Lerne doch mal finnisch und du kannst ein echter finnischer Fuzzi unter uns werden ;)

At the moment it is not sure if there will be any new diesel locomotives. There are no calls for tenders at this time.

Huh?
Do you really find that likely?

How about Mierontie? Hyvinkää-Karjaa? Everything around Haapamäki? East of Pieksämäki?
The Dv12 series are getting quite very old already, surely they must get replaced quite soon?

Some years ago VR announced that the first new diesel locomotives would be in service in 2015. I would say it is now very late to make that move.

That is true, but it still doesn't mean the project is cancelled. Only postponed, for whatever reason.
The organizational reshaping last June might have caused enough hassle that they have wanted to concentrate fully on that before thinking about getting any further new rolling stock.

This is really not an answer to Your question, but let me say, this country had a truly flourishing locomotive industry before. The first railway (five foot, or 1524 mm) was opened 1862 and the early locomotives were ordered from Britain, soon from German shops (=manufacturers) and Swiss.
     Around 1900, serial production of excellent steam engines commenced in Finland, and it continued 'til 1957 when the last one was built. In those in between years, orders were as well placed at US. and German manufacturers - for different reasons. I guess, or actually know that it could have the question of the price level. The great bulk of them was, alas, domestic machines.
     Diesels started to come around 1960 and, in the beginning, it was 100 % Finnish production. Then the VR decided to go over to electric propulsion at certain parts of the network and there was of course need for a heavy mainline mover. They say that the domestic producers had blueprints ready for a thing like that, but for trade political reasons the first ever heavy electric main line train engines were ordered from Soviet Union.
     I do not wish to comment this in details I know there are many on this pages that dislike my critical, at times sarcastic style anyway.
     If I could decide - which I of course cannot - I would order most of the stock from Finnish builders.
     But I guess I belong to the past.

Sorry ei nyt tähän hätään englanti taivu. Miksi Vr on ilmoittanut siis tämän vuoden kesäkuun tiedotteessaan, että yritys hankkii lähitulevaisuudessa uusia dieselvetureita? Eikö tuo kerro siitä, että projektia ei ole hylätty? Linkki:
http://www.vrgroup.fi/fi/vrgroup/uutishuone/uutiset-ja-tiedotteet/vr-group-on-kaynnistanyt-matkustajavaunujen-hankinnan--040620141017/

Translation:
Sorry, kann zur Zeit kein Englisch. Warum haben dann die VR im Juni veröffentlich, dass sie im nähen Zukunft neue Dieselloks beschaffen werden? Ist das wohl nicht ein Zeichen dafür, dass das Projekt nicht aufgegeben ist? Verknüpfung:
http://blahblah

In the rather near future, when there will be no more Dv12´s, many train will not move if there was no replacement. There still are, and will be, many unelectified railways and tracks. The Sr3 is for last-mile-by-diesel only, and can not be used in longer unelectrified railways.

So we need a certain amount of new diesel traction. As these future diesels will be used also in heavy shunting, I am almost certain they will be single cab locos, like Vossloh G1700BB of Voith equivalent.

Beside this, we need some amount of slow, simple and cheap shunting locos.

Siemens is well known for it's negotiating technique, which coincidentally happens to be especially suitable for the current Finnish sociopoliticial environment. See for example what's been going on regarding the Helsinki metro automatization project ;D

If there's anything they can offer, I think currently almost any Finnish organization is likely to choose their product over other companies'.

Not cynical. Realistic.

The answer is, the new diesel locomotives will come from Scania and Volvo. Okey, I simplified the answer a bit. But let's face it. The rail-borne freight traffic is declining and I don't see anybody in this country who is opposing this trend seriously. Everywhere you look, you will see abandoned sidings, branch lines that are being put out of use. Large trucks occupy the roads. The Ministry of communications (or whatever they call themselves) seem to be giving up the hope of transferring freight from road to rail. They have put large amounts of money in projects like the Vuosaari harbour rail tunnel (immensely expensive, very sparsely used) or the rebuilding of - say - Huutokoski-Savonlinna line (now facing total closure because lack of traffic). They are now changing road legistlation and infrastructure to allow huge trucks to start moving goods. I'm afraid that's the future, and the "locomotives" will come from Scania and Volvo. The monopoly company VR isn't much intrested in freight traffic, not at least outside the few main lines. They have at the moment their hands full of dealing with vanishing passengers (due to very service-oriented budget bus companies) and will probably not want to invest much in freight equipment. It's a sad picture and I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

Hi,
thank you for the numerous contributions.
Available at the VR again the problem with diesel locomotives as in the 60'ziger years?
I once read that at that time the NOHABs, who rode in Sweden and Norway, were also tested in Finland and one was very satisfied with this locomotive, but it did not come to an order, because the Finnish Locomotivefactorys Valmet and lokomo contrast were that foreign locomotives are at the VR in operation since Finland has its own factories for diesel locomotives.
Since the NOHABs were not used in Finland, Valmet and  lokomo have thus developed the beautiful locomotives of the series DR12.
Could it be, therefore, that the tender was canceled with diesel locomotives at the VR on it?
If I have written incorrect information here, I beg your a proper education, many thanks.
Yes, I am going to learn Finnish, I like the country very much and the language, but it is very difficult to learn

VR is very likely going to squeeze all they can get from the current fleet of diesels, and postpone an order for new ones to the last minute. It makes sense, anything pulled by diesels is not very attractive to VR. And it's not only that diesels get charged double for track usage, it's that most of the high-value and/or high-volume freight runs on electrified line anyways, with little switching involved. Or will likely run in the future, the electrification of the finnish rail network certainly isn't over yet, there will be new subdivisions added, one by one.

If VR does order a new next generation roadswitcher model customized to finnish operating standards, i'd expect a potential competitor might snag a nice deal from the manufacturer for an additional small order for themselves to go with it. Would such a scenario play out, i sure hope the newcomer has a better taste on locomotive paint jobs.

That point about competing companies is actually very interesting. Well thought.

Currently there are almost no viable sources for other companies to acquire any rolling stock, but VR placing a big order for locomotives would probably indeed make it a lot easier for other companies to get their thing rolling.
And then again, if Fennia Rail at some point soonish gets its stuff going, then maybe VR can get their locomotives a wee bit cheaper by tapping into the design alterations made for Fennia Rail? :)

And actually, it's starting to seem likely that the next diesels in Finland (Dr17, right?) might indeed be not for VR but for Fennia Rail. Or?

Well, the designation will certainly not be Dr17, as Trafi has already allocated that designation to the industrial Move 67 locomotives.

Is it known what the Fennia Rail locomotives will have? Be entirely new locomotives ordered this private railway, or rather buy used locomotives from the VR for cost reasons?

Fennia Rail will order new locomotives, because VR dont want to sell/lease locomotives.

Your conclusions about Nohab vs. Dr12 are correct, Peter. But I would not say there were real problems with the diesels in 1960´s.

There were at least three generations of diesels: first, in 1950´s the Valmet products meant for passenger traffic: Dm 3-4, Hr11 and Dm 6-7. The spin-off of Dm 3-4 was Vv 13-14 using the same good old GM 6-71 motors, but the Hr 11 and its Maybach-Mekydro machinery, which was the most unreliable, were a true problem, and VR made a decision against fast-speed diesels, Mekydros and bogie construction. All this against the development in Germany, where almost all locos were fitted with fast-speed diesel engines and Maybach-Mekydro becoming highly successful in that use.

But not in Finland. So we may call the second generation "the MAN generation". Orders were made after 1956 and Dv15-16 (together with Vr 11 proto serie), and Dr12 used slow-speed MAN diesels. If Nohabs were selected instead of Dr12, the Dv15-16 would have been something with EMD V12...And, in middle size locos all transmissions were ordered from Voith after bitter experiences with Swedish SRM transmission in Vr 11 serie.

Then winds were changing rapidly and the third generation was ordered in 1960 in form of French Dr13, and, the same French diesel engine was put to a new allround-loco Dv12 with bogies. At least now they should have used German V12 engines, but no, no, the French MGO V16, which was not originally meant for main line use, was selected, because the Dr13 was of a French construction.

The last type of third generation was Dr14, a combination of modernized MAN slow engine, Voith transmission and bogies.

It is interesting to find that many Finnish diesel loco types followed the German types as follows:

1958 Vr11/Dv15-15 compared to V 60, but especially V 65 (DR V 60)
1959 the 2000 hv type, Dr12, which could be compared to V 200 and to Nohab and Swiss/Romanian 060DA as well (DR V 180)
1960 Dr13, which could, at least remotely, be compared to V 200.1 or even V 300 or V 320. (DR 119)
1963 Dv 12 compared to V 100 (DR V 100)
1968 Dr 14 compared to V 90 (no equivalent in DR types)

And now, what is missing? The V 160 ...BR 218 of course, which is one of my favourite loco types. We have been discussing about this on this forum, unfortunately all these discussions are in Finnish but keep up the good work in learning Finnish  :)

( I try to learn some German. Ich verstehe noch ein bisschen  ;) )

@Kimmo T. Lumirae

Thank you for the very detailed and interesting contribution. There is already information which new diesel locomotives will buy the new private railway Fennia Rail ?

Wir können uns doch gegenseitig helfen, du mir finnisch und ich dir deutsch  :D

I've written even on the Portuguese model railway company of Sud express on Facebook, this company manufactures the locomotive Euro 4000 as HO and N model. I wrote that, if the Fennia rail actually this beautiful locomotives would buy once, if they bring them then as a model. Their answer was that the rumors have Sud Express too, Fennia rail have interest on the Euro 4000.
If it will really give this locomotive of this railway, Sud Express will produce this as a model.

How do you find these diesel locomotive, Vossloh Euro 4000?

Hi Peter, and thank you.

As you probably know, there has never been a private freight operator in Finland; so we do not know, what freight traffic could they take; heavy, long-distance or more like local; is the Vossloh 4000 too large and expensive for Fennia Rail purposes, we do not know that yet.

Well, there has been no nationwide private freight operator. Imatran Veturipalvelu is a freight operator however, isn't it, even if only a very local one.

Yes, that might be, but Fennia rail needs large and powerful locomotives, if they wish to successfully compete with the VR.
Fennia Rail wishes to participate in the transport of goods with Russia, since strong locomotives for heavy trains, therefore, necessary.
It would not take much if they would buy locomotives in the size of a DV12 and before then several locomotives would pull a train,
would this may come even more expensive ..

Toivotan teille kaikille ihanaa viikonloppua!

Und wir wünschen Dir eine schönes wochenende!  ;)

It is now known. The Fennia rail ordered three diesel locomotives from the Czech Republic by CZ Loko. The new and only Fennia Rail locomotives are probably the name:  774.7F get. Only three locomotives these types? Is that not enough? How can this car doing really great competition the VR, when you consider that there are up to three locomotives on a single heavy freight train?
I was hoping the Fennia rail ordered the Vossloh locomotive E4  :'(

http://www.fenniarail.fi/nyt.html

One of those 774.4Fs can pull quite precisely the same train as two Dv12s. They will be mostly hauling wood in the beginning and for that the tractive effort and power should suffice. I gather they will order different locomotives later on, if they have the need for it.

FR has said they are trying to reach a 10 % market share, and since there are currently far more than just 30 locomotives in Finland, if Fennia Rail gets lucky and succeeds, there will be further orders.

Coming back to the thread's theme,the existence of FR might have consequences on the VR diesel investment. They might concentrate more on the electrified mainlines or they might set a higher gear in taking market share, which would mean needing new diesels. Might make sense for VR to wait and see for a year or two, see what happens about competition and then invest or not invest according to what VR's role ends up being. The Dv12 will do fine for a couple extra years.

Kiitos puheenvuorostanne ja valistuksen  :)